Lost and Found Podcast
Conversations with ordinary people who experience the extraordinary life of Jesusnd give themselves away to the King.
Lost and Found Podcast
003: Missional Engagement with Jeff Christopherson
There are moments in our lives that just change us. One of those moments for me (Derek, the creator of Lost and Found Podcast) was in 2006 when I listened to Jeff Christopherson present something he called Kingdom Matrix at a conference in Keller, Tx. Perhaps Jeff being a fellow Canuck played into it, but Jeff, as only he can do, gave pictures and graphics and language to a conversation I suspected God was having with his church. The status quo was not working. As Jeff says, we need a new kind of church led my a new kind of leader or missionary and a new level of collaboration among churches for mission. Since that fateful day in 2006 my thinking on missional engagement has been forever changed.
Jeff is writes a blog, Missio Mondays for Christianity Today, and has authored three books: Kingdom Matrix, Kingdom First and Venal Dogmatta. An expanded edition of Kingdom Matrix is now available with a study guide by Mac Lake. You can order these books from Amazon by clicking on highlighted the links.
Our Guest: Jeff Christopherson
The most significant thing to know about Jeff is not what he does, but who he is. Jeff Christopherson is a man of substance and character. Devoted Jesus follower, faithful husband and dad, loving son, loyal friend are descriptions of who Jeff is. He is a brilliant missiologist who, in his thinking, serves out of his weakness in God's strength. You can learn more about this week's guest and follow him on social media by clicking on any of the following live links: Facebook, Twitter Instagram and LinkedIn.
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spk_0: 0:00
I'm Derrick Jones, and you're listening to the lost and found podcast. My guest today was born and raised in small pounds scattering. In 2006 I met Jeff Kristofferson for the first time in a conference, and I sat transfixed as he unveiled a concept called Kingdom Matrix. That seminar forever changed my thinking on mission. Jeff is currently the executive director of Church Planting Canada, co executive director of the Send Institute, lead pastor of Sanctuary Church Oakville and a contributor to Christianity today is an accomplished author and is one of the premier mission all thinkers of our day. When Jeff and I sat down together in Halifax, Nova Scotia, recently, Way talked about Kingdom, family, mission and the people God uses. But I really wanted to know where the idea of Kingdom Matrix had originated, for it
spk_1: 1:03
was, ah, sermon or a book. It was a napkin. And, um, I began to watch because I was I was planting in Toronto again. So very, ah, highly secularized world view of most people. Most people home weren't unchurched or D church. They were. They were, you know, generations several generations away from church, so nobody was thinking, You know, maybe I should get my kids into church and have some kind of a platform. Um, and so I'm watching Church planters do strange things in the city, things that weren't really engaging. And I was trying to put my finger on Why? Why is the thing? Because the thing that they're doing seems theologically correct. But why is it getting nowhere and and and so just mused a lot of both that and begin to realize that I think a lot of the things that we do unchurched people or people with no religious background are absolutely, you know, they're just not excited by it because they see it as something that is not important. They're busy people, and they're going to do altruistic things in their lives. But they want them to be important things. And a lot of what I think the church had centered around. Perhaps we think it's important, but they didn't and s o. I think I I began to construct on napkin a cover grid to help a church planter realize that the thing that they're doing, how people are perceiving it and why you're not getting anywhere with them so that that was kind of the beginning motivation of that.
spk_0: 2:42
I think what was most life changing for me is it? It helped me to maybe see, for the first time, some sort of, ah, Miss theological framework from the church. I came away from that understanding, even some of my own church history A little better, particularly with the I mean, you look at the sacred and the and the secular form, and I'm not sure we would really say that Those line up perfectly. But But then the two kingdoms Dominion of darkness. I will. We end of light.
spk_1: 3:10
We understand sacred second very well. And it's not really a helpful designation sometimes because, um I mean, it really wasn't even a thing until kind of enlightenment, you know? And then basically, the sacred secular was anything that wasn't the sacred. So we have these two categories and and yet you just think, like if it's sacred, it's good. Like if your kid is got, you know, headphones on these bebop into some music and you're thinking, you know, I hope that's Christian music or hope, you know, And, uh oh, are you're seeing someone reading a book you're going. Oh, I hope that's a Christian book. And but it's possible like you're driving down the road and you're listening to your Christian radio station and you're here in this drivel. Come on, it, you know, and you're going. Your spirit is just drying up you go, Thio. I don't know. This is and and so you're going your punch a button and you go, you change the channel and your sacred because you're a Christian. So it's a sacred car and you can you turn it toe like 99 FM and his Lionel Richie the best of the eighties or something like that, and you're driving down the road listening to Lionel Richie, I feel a little bit guilty. Kind of a guilty pleasure. You know, your memory's going back to when you were dating Sheila, and you're you're thinking about you know Oh, man, I love that woman and and you're you're driving down the road having memories and a fascination of how much you love your wife and you're praising the Lord for your wife and having this worship service in your car and you drive home and you don't go and and park your year, your butt on your couch. But you actually go to the flower store and buy flowers for Sheila and you look her in the eye and you say, Sheila, you're the best gift God has ever given me outside of my own salvation. I don't tell you that enough. I want you to know I love you and she's got tears running down her eyes and And what just happened? The Kingdom of God expanded your your home is stronger. Your grandkids have a better grand parents. Your kids have better parents, and your neighbors have better neighbors. Your church has better has better Christian leaders in it because you drove down the road listening to secular music. You know, Lionel Richie disciples you a little bit there. So sometimes these designations that we have of sacred or secular um, are these arbitrary things that are actually counterproductive because the rial, the rial meat of it, is the too spiritually realities that that drive every decision we ever make. And that is the Dominion of darkness and the Kingdom of God. And they're not equals. They're not the same, but they're the things that that really inspire our decision making. And so our cooperation with those you know, those little voices determine you know which realm is being expanded. Our life,
spk_0: 6:00
man, you just got me in trouble. You realize that, right? Because I go home from Halifax tomorrow and roll in the Fredericton. I'm gonna have to go somewhere, pick up some flowers, because Sheila is gonna hear this thing at some point say, But you didn't pick up anything. I'm sorry. Don't be. You can reap the benefits of that. All right. Well, you know, one of things that intrigued me the most in that presentation was we got to You got to the place where you talked about what's it look like when the person who is a not yet Christian is motivated by kingdom values? Unpack that for me.
spk_1: 6:37
Yeah, so I mean, so there are only two spiritual realms, and they're not equal, but But they are absolute. So then you gotta ask yourself why, when I when I I have a friend who, um, you know, right up ride a motorcycle with who is a believer now. But before he was a believer, whenever he was, he drove Annie Emma. He drove an ambulance for years, and whenever there was a disaster, he would go and spend his own resources in his own money in his own time to goto whatever the disaster, waas and be the first on the ground there as an unbeliever. Yes, what inspires that person to make a sacrifice to do something like that. And then you begin to look in Scripture. You seek passage scripture like Ecclesiastes 3 11 where Goddess said, Attorney in our hearts. Or is this Blaise? Pascal says it is God shaped vacuum inside us that that were really you know, we're really wanting our lives to count for something, and we're wanting to invest it in something. And so there are a whole bunch of people that don't have the juice. They don't have the Holy Spirit living inside them. And so, just in spasms and flickers, they're able. Thio sort of resonate on a kingdom kind of thing, and they want to be a part of it. But when they see a Christ follower who has staked out camp in the Kingdom of God, they want a first Peter 3 15 year. They won't open you up with a can opener and figure. What is this hope that you have? Because they see something in you that that they sense inside themselves along and desire. They haven't put Jesus name to it, but there is this. They're created in the image of Christ and they've never been there. There need of a king. But they desire the kingdom because this my definition, it kind of help us understand that the Kingdom of God is what things look like when Jesus gets his way. Yes, so it's what my family looks like. It's what my business looks like. It's what everything looks like when Jesus gets his way because it works. Where were we were created for the kingdom? Everything works perfectly when Jesus gets his way. And and so when they see that kind of Christ faller that kind of church, you know, it answers a lot of questions in the long of a person's heart and
spk_0: 8:53
belief. Wow, Don't you just love the way Jeff Kristofferson so clearly and so practically defines kingdom? The Kingdom of God is what things look like when Jesus gets his way. Hey, listen, Thanks for joining in on this podcast episode with Jeff Kristofferson here in Lost and Found. We take the investment of your time seriously. So we have designed this and every episode with stories and conversation that can help you find deep purpose and meaning in the way you live your life. But I need your help with three things. First, would you subscribe to this podcast by clicking on the subscribe button? Whether you're listening on bus proud, our host or Spotify Apple podcast or another directory, you will see a subscribe button right there on your screen. When you do, be sure to rate this episode and leave a helpful comment. Secondly, if you are finding our podcast to be helpful or encouraging, would you mind sharing this episode on social media with a personal recommendation? We believe that many Christians see the need to live life on mission, but they just lack confidence. That's why this podcast can be so helpful. We tell stories of people just like you and me with the same fears and insecurities and have overcome all the negative voices and have embraced Jesus having his way in their life. So we need you to pass it on by sharing this episode on Facebook, instagram, Twitter or whatever social media platform you use. Thirdly, I would love to stay in touch with you so we can let you know when new podcast episodes and other helpful resources become available. From time to time, we will be publishing bonus episodes on YouTube or or within this podcast format, and we want to be able to tell you about those as well. Sometimes I will look to you to discern what is working for us and where we need improvement. Frankly, I'm going to need your help with all of this. So would you right now pause the podcast and go to lost and found podcast dot c A and register for insider newsletter. There's a form right there on our home page, Lawson found podcast dot c a. Now let's get back to our conversation with Jeff Kristofferson. I asked Jeff about a man who had been influential in his development as a kingdom Christian. Listen carefully to how he describes how God uses us in spite of our weaknesses. There was a guy passing through town one day, Um, in the summer of I don't know what year it was and you called me and said When Jack gets in town, you know, look after him. And so there was this guy in your life. Yeah, Jack Corner, who just has made, I think, a profound impact between he and Henry Blackerby, CNBC than the denomination
spk_1: 11:57
there The Godfather,
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The Godfather tell us about this pastor that that had influence in your family and in your life. And the difference.
spk_1: 12:06
Yeah, So Jack Connor probably would typify what you see in a Scripture, and that is, God uses weak people. There's nothing tremendously gifted about Jack Connor. There's nothing that you would say, You know, he's he's the best preacher you've ever heard or he's the best leader you've ever seen. But he had a heart for Jesus like very few people I have ever known. And and and he was willing to pay whatever price Christ asked. And so he he began to realize that unaware where this revelation came because it certainly didn't come from the evangelical subculture certainly comes from Scripture that the church is never to be the goal. That the Kingdom of God is the goal, and the church is the vehicle to advance that goal and When the church becomes the goal, it becomes an idolatrous, powerless thing. And and so I got disciple in an environment where people would come to Christ and normally sense a call in the ministry. And he didn't say, you know, come and stay here and lead this part of our church and kind of consolidate everybody into one thing. But he actually gave away everyone. And so we looked at town to look at places that didn't have gospel presents and said, How do we get How do we get a Bible study? Start here. I don't get a church. Start here and And so my discipleship journey wasn't cool. Wasn't slick. It wasn't pretty. It was real. It was a messy. It probably looked a lot like what you see in the book of acts Jack Connor, you know, godly, godly guy. When you met him, he his wife was an ailing health, and you need to get a warm, dry climate. So they actually went to lived in Phoenix for quite a few years, and then she passed away and he thought, Okay, I'm now free to serve the Lord like I want to again, So it 80 He loads up a U Haul truck and drives from Phoenix to Cape Breton, Right? And says, Okay, let's go do it again. So, I mean, he was He shows he was not teaching me how to retire. You
spk_0: 14:08
said that your discipleship wasn't pretty. It wasn't cool, I guess. Yeah. Uh, Jack take you with him on?
spk_1: 14:15
Yeah, I remember a lot. Even as even as, ah, you know, a pre teen ager driving in his little Datsun car, going wherever we're going. He's asking me, Crescent, Jeff, you know what is faith? You know, he's he's Yeah, he just asked me questions, seeing what my answer is And then, you know, kind of it for me. A little better on that. Yeah, it was a lot of that
spk_0: 14:34
house that influenced how you make disciples today is a leader.
spk_1: 14:38
I mean, for me, I'm get I'm getting better and better and better this because I think for a little while I got fascinated with school of church goes, I think I got fascinated with pretty and slick. It came to be, um I think when I was planting a second church second shirts I planted, I had a whole bunch of Christians together gathered together. That certainly was gonna be the core of a church. And I began to realize that even though I got them to sign this document in a statement saying, You know, we're gonna be this we're not going to be this. But when when push came to shove that group of people really wanted church for themselves. Yes. E had an opportunity to plan another church said we we weren't gonna have any Christians. And we were going to do everything by evangelism and make disciples from scratch. And emulate is close to the New Testament as we as we knew how to and we we gave ah, vision that called us to it. And it was a growing group of friends giving ourselves away to advance the kingdom of God and everything that we did was kind of that. And so so for me, discipleship began, became Follow me live like I live and it became we. I had little teams. I called him Pneuma Knotts. Pneuma being spirit Not Yes, sailor. And and so I was teaching them how to listen to the voice of the spirit and follow the voice of the spirit in their own life. And obviously the Holy Spirit is the best teacher in in disciple making, right? I mean, he draws Jesus out into every area of our lives. And so it just becomes a that point. You better live the life that you're saying you're live because that spirit is inside of new believers is gonna ask lots of good questions and yeah,
spk_0: 16:24
fantastic. Well, you you're, ah, graduate of Canadian Southern Baptist Seminary. And course now the mantra is where the motto is. Training people for hard places, training leaders for hard places. How has that impacted your life over the years? Your time spent it C S B s.
spk_1: 16:42
Yeah, I had, you know, just you just look back and you go. There was there was there's some investment that e I don't think I really knew how valuable it was until I start meeting leaders that didn't have it. And it's kind of second nature to you and you see people struggling. And so I think in terms of gospel proclamation communication, I really learned how to do that. There it was, for me, a weakness thing. I was really afraid of, Ah, Professor that really just was patient and gave me some tools. You know, when you sometimes the best teachers are people that aren't natural at something beyond they've had to learn it like Wayne Gretzky, I guess, wasn't a very good coach because everything came to him naturally, yes, but but others who had had to learn sort of systems and steps are sometimes better coaches in those things. And so I think the teach some of the teachers I had really gave me the ability to look at an audience and look at a passage of Scripture and be able to shape a message that really, actually is for them for what's going on there. And so a lot of times I don't have very rarely do. I have people say, Jeff, you know, you're an incredible preacher, but I speak all over all over North America and I get an offer when I do often in a room, somebody is going to say Jeff, when you spoke, it changed my life. It's not really my, you know, the proficiency of my speaking or ability, but I think it was just some tools that I learned and the Holy Spirit helping and sort of empowering that that is able to guide a message to a context. And, uh, and then his power kind of works in there. So you
spk_0: 18:22
planted the church in the Calgary area now and then you went from Calgary to Oakville? Yes, I'm familiar with some of that story. But I know I remember we planted in Utah. The guy planted with would ask me at the front end. Are you having fun? And for me, it was anything but fun. And though in the early already days, you know, I just felt like I was offering out of what? I didn't know you and said what I did. But in your book came to Matrix. You write about a morning. I think it was when one of the female team members came down and had been reading from Isaiah. I don't remember that passage, Isaiah. Six and 61. 123 61 story where three. I'm just gonna read that into what we're doing, and then I don't want to respond to that and how how transformational that was for you folks as a team. But the passage says the spirit of God is upon me because of the ward has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted to proclaim liberty to the captives in the opening of prison. To those who are bound to proclaim the Year of the Lord's favor and the Day of Vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn to grant to those who mourn in science, to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes. The oil of gladness instead of mourning the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit that they may be called oaks of righteousness the planting of the Lord that he may be glorified. Tell me what that did for your team and how it changed everything
spk_1: 19:57
well, to get the context. I was visiting Oakville from Calgary. Another family was was meeting us from Winnipeg, another family from North Carolina and and we're all staying at this one family in Oakfield House. We're gonna end up starting a hippie commune living in this 1400 serve what down nose? For months there is but the first, the very first time we all got together in that living room. I just sensed the Lord saying, because I was scared to death. The only
spk_0: 20:25
thing I
spk_1: 20:25
knew is that our denomination had no money for this. There is nothing in the budget to help us, and I didn't know how to do this. And so and so the very first thing I asked us to do. We we met. We shook hands. We got to know each other's names a little bit. And then he said, I said, Let's pray because what we're considering here is, you know, just stupid unless God is in this. And so we went and we prayed, and, you know, one of those for me. It was one of those rare times where the air was thick, like you could just sense the Lord's presence with us. And you you could almost feel like you could cut the air with a knife and put a block of it. I mean, it was just His presence was so heavy in that room, and I sensed the Lord saying, and I said it to the guys. I said, I sense the Lord saying, Come, I'm gonna take care of you that I'm gonna do something that you've never seen and it's gonna blow your socks off and don't take the credit for it. I just sensed God saying those three things to me. We, uh, we went to Ah church that afternoon and are that it was in the afternoon. It was a Spanish church. Francisco LR Grazia Baptista, who have Venezuelan missionary to Canada to plant a church in Toronto. Scarborough there. And it was also, I'm going, Why are we going to this church? Because it's all Spanish and none of us speak Spanish and we sit down and Spanish, Spanish, Spanish, Spanish, Spanish, Spanish. And then I could tell he's not preaching. He's talking, and three young men are get up from where they were and they sit beside each of our couples, and he didn't know who we were. And he's in the middle of a story. And he's telling of when he went to whatever town he was in Venezuela to Caracas to plant a church, he had his family in a bus and it stopped by a bus station, and there was a park across the way, and he doesn't know what to do, so he puts his family on a bench in their suitcases and he starts sharing the gospel with people in there, and nobody is responding to him and it just gets dark and he doesn't know what his next move is. And on he sees one more person that park. You start sharing the gospel of them, and that person comes to Christ. And he says, Why don't you come and tell my wife about is my family? And so he brings all of his family and their suitcases to his home and shares Christ with her family and ends up saying, Why don't you come and live with us and we'll start this church together. And I'm seeing tears come down the eyes of everybody in our team because just earlier, we're just saying Lord saying the same thing. And then that that evening, Then this young lady finds that passage of Scripture and it ends with they will be called oaks of righteousness. A planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor. Weren't Oakville and hear God is saying this the same thing. I'm gonna take care of you. I'm gonna do something that only I can do. It's a planting of the Lord And don't take the mike. Don't take the credit. It's for the display of his splendor. And so that that passage really it's cemented us a game, the theme of everything we did.
spk_0: 23:21
So you planted sanctuary Oakville. And I think when I met you, there were, I don't know, 15 to 20 congregations that had sprung off from that.
spk_1: 23:30
Well, we started. Something got bigger than we could really manage. And so we started something called Toronto Church planting out of it. And ah, and then that sort of now morphed into Caen Toronto. And so it's just really and become come a lot of infrastructure for the whole send idea that we're doing.
spk_0: 23:47
So you have. Ah, speaking of Cind, of course, that came out of North American mission board and revamping of that organization. And you had a big role to play in that right from the outset when Dr Zell became president of the board there and I had a big hand in developing the Sin network, co founder of the Send Institute with its debt, sir. Yet and now executive director of Church Planting Canada. Yeah, E. I mean, how's your thinking chains over that because this is God takes us on these journeys and you know, the good, poor, high points and the low points. But all the while he's creating something in
spk_1: 24:27
us just just in being able to have a seat. The Lord has let me have to see things like with the Send network, where I got to see about 700 churches a year stone across North America get to watch the ones that are actually producing kingdom growth by by people who were going being transformed from the Dominion of darkness to the King God versus those that are just sort of reshuffling of the deck. And I'm just seeing there's probably three big rocks that I want to end my life on. And I'm gonna use all of my energy for these three things because this is just what I watched. Number one is we need a different kind of church. That church is gonna be way less self centered and way more self sacrificial. It's going to have a plan to discover, develop and deploy church planning teams from within because I don't see a future for the Church in North America on the trajectory that we're on right now. I got to, ah, this September, go to Greece and and speak with church planning teams from 85 different countries and see the movie where we're in Thessaloniki, Greece. And you know, Paul was praying to the church of vessel Nika that the gospel would run. You literally run well right from there. I got to see the gospel running across the world, and I'm thinking, seeing what they're doing versus what we're kind of doing in North America, that for us a church is really a worse observes mostly in a worship service that really meets my needs and that that does. You can't see that anywhere in the Scripture. And so churches that multiply different kind of church that they're the raw material for a kingdom. Movement is in the pews, and disciple making is the one job Jesus gave the church to do and churches take it seriously, and then we need a different kind of missionary. Right now we're thinking, we're thinking that, um when we think of a pastor, we're thinking a full time paid guy who does everything. That's kind of the mindset that we have not A lot of people are signed up for that job anymore, and it's kind of a thankless job and it's it's it's hard and I don't think anybody was ever supposed to do that thing. And so we had to come with word because for we had the word by vocational. But it was kind of like the booby price, you know, they really wanted that job. It was like like if my church could only pay me more, I could be a full time real pastor like these other guys. But I have to go do drive the school bus and, you know, do these other things, because I it can't. But if it ever grows enough, I'm gonna ditch all these other jobs. Well, we need a different imagination. And and so it came up with word co vocational by means, you know, to it means like we using words like by for Kate or bisect. And it's almost a competition. A division. Coal comes from the Latin calm, which means with and so soco Vocational is the imagination. I think we need that. We're talking about that sacred secular divide. There's lots of people listening. Those podcast that can remember a time where they knew God called them to be a nurse. They know God called them to be a school teacher, and we treat them like that. Some second class calling. And what if it isn't? What if it was God's plan from the very beginning from the foundation? Third, that you're a nurse, you're a school teacher. You're a businessman, your or whatever. But you also have a holy calling to the mission of Christ as well. And so you form teams, and I think like a typology like Ephesians 4 11 12 is healthy. So you're looking at, you know, the whole body of Christ equipping, equipping the whole body of Christ. Foreign Ministry. And all of a sudden, you know, I think it it becomes way more accessible for not just the ones he's in Tuesday's, but for movements, for churches to multiply rapidly. And so I'm putting my money where my mouth is because I've been I've been pondering this idea since 2006 and I remember a bus ride. I'm on with Alan Hirsch before anybody Before he was out on her, she was just, you know, there's Ozzie on a bus, and he sort of opened my mind on that idea. So I went back to Oakdale. We moved back to Canada and, um and I went to the church that we had started and said, I'll make you a deal because the pastor that was there was in transition and he was gonna be leaving, and I kind of got a heads up on that. So I went to the elders and said, If you want, I'll come back and lead this church again Co vocational e. And I'm gonna build a team that that leads on. This idea that we're just talking about has just been really cool. In fact, today is Friday. So on Sunday, I get to baptize nine new. You know, Colin and Wave just kind of picked up the reins in September. So it's kind of that I offered ah, preaching course for church planting, preaching, and we had 22 people say on the Yeah, and so it's just like it's fun to see this thing bubbling in the hearts of of these layman who are sensing like I there's more to my life and I want to be on one of these co vocational teams. So we're training them.
spk_0: 29:44
Wow, that's fantastic. You know? And I'm getting to live that in a way. We just had a meeting with the leaders at various Will Baptist Church before we interviewed this. Yes, and I get along tow, walk alongside these younger guys to transition that much to what you're talking about. Co vocational. Yeah, Andi, we often joke about that. If I don't please them, they're going to cut my pay. But the power the power
spk_1: 30:11
of this is like I now stand before those people on preaching, and everybody knows I'm just like them. In fact, I'm probably busier than most of them. And so when I say follow me like I follow Christ, they know I'm putting my money. Where mothers I used in the back of my mind, I'd say stuff, but I'm in back of my mind. I think of them going. Yeah, but you're a full time guy now. They don't think that because I'm kind of like one of them. And, uh and so you
spk_0: 30:39
talked about three pillars kind of church. A new kind
spk_1: 30:41
of missionary. Thank you. Keep me on track. And then I think I'm absolutely. We need a new level of collaboration between churches in geography. You know the answer. John 17. Jesus. Prayer of Unity isn't a unity just just for fellowship. It's a unity for mission. I give you your and me a great illustration of what this thing could look like. Where almost in every city in North America, if you go on a 10 year measurement, there's actually physically less people in church now than there was 10 years ago. Yes, and you go well. All of our church growth ideas that we've been spending and spinning have actually caused less people to be in shirts. Then there was before we were doing all this. There's a difference. There's one difference. Um, Buffalo Christ together brought a bunch of pastors together, and God initiated it through the life of one of the key leaders, one key pastors in that church who basically very humbly I went to a lot of the pastors and apologized for the way their church had treated other churches, just apologized and really created a sense of trust and humility amongst the pastor's, which really God used to knit them together and say, well, What if we use this unity for gospel saturation in Buffalo? And what if every man, every woman, every boy, every girl got to see and hear and taste and smell the good news of Jesus Christ on multiple occasions so they could reject Christ or received Christ, they would have an informed decision and S o they made a pledge to do that. And they're going to do it in two ways. By partnering and strengthening churches that are there, that air and planting new churches. And so they had their maps out together as leaders. They said, We need to put a church here and someone said, Well, you know, Brother Bob has a church there and he's sucking wind, but he's a great guy. Many of the church's move families, from their churches to that shirt and also that church became vibrant. And they said, We need to plan to church over here and they go, You're right. And and they all put in families together and numbers of churches cooperate plants and again and again and again and again all throughout Buffalo. And so, over 10 years, over a 10 year period, every other city has less people in church. In it, the city of Buffalo has actually decreased in those 10 years. But the actual church attendance went up 29% in the city of Buffalo. And, ah, and it's all because of this godly collaboration for gospel saturation that happened. We collaborate for prayer. We collaborate for fellowship. We collaborate for unity. But maybe we should really collaborate for the mission of Christ. I think I think we might be on to something.
spk_0: 33:32
I'm not sure who was it said this. I don't want a President Reagan in the states or not, but it's It's amazing what can happen when we don't care about who gets
spk_1: 33:38
who gets the credit exactly.
spk_0: 33:45
Jeff has given us so much to think about, but the final segment is my favorite part of this episode. You have got to hang around for the finale at the end of the program. I'm going to tell you how you can purchase one of Jeff's books right from a link in our website, and when you do, you'll be supporting this podcast as well. In the previous segment, Jeff spoke about a a different kind of church, where the clergy laity divide my words, not his, but where the clergy laity divide is set aside and Christians are equipped to serve as they engage in God's call on their life. To be a nurse or engineer, trades person or fill in the blank. If you are experiencing a desire from within to engage in something Maur to serve co vocational Lee as both Jeff and I do, I would love to hear from you. Drop me an email it Hello, it lost and found podcast dot c a. Or leave a comment in the discussed box in the link to this podcast episode 003 at Lost and Found podcast dot c A. Now let's get back to the final segment of our interview with Jeff Kristofferson. Well, listen, there's I've saved the best for the last because I wanted to ask you, I want you to tell us a story. And, um, it's a story of how your mom and dad came to know Jesus. And I think this is just one of the greatest stories I've ever heard, and you tell the story and Kingdom may trick your book by the way, before we get into that Yeah. You have a new book coming out.
spk_1: 35:33
Do is called two new books coming home.
spk_0: 35:36
I didn't hear about second once a novel, right?
spk_1: 35:39
Yeah. Has called Vienna Dog Mata and which vino means up for sale? Like like a politician. You know, he's hell, he's up for sale and dog mad. Just plural of doctrine. So basically, your belief system that's up for sale is kind of the end. It's the life is kind of story of a an inner city, African American church in Philadelphia. And this is kind of after whatever's going on the U. S. With the election cycle and you know, Jesus says if you live by the sword, you're gonna die by the sword. And so I think there's lots of evangelicals who have been living by politics and so they're gonna be dying by politics soon enough. Yes, And that that the backlash has now come and this church loses its ability. Thio have ah property tax free property and they get this property tax bill of 80 some $1000. And I was just more they could do. And then it goes from that bleak picture to a movement because they lost all the artificial penning's of church. And all sudden, they started to get real about what was Jesus idea for church in the first place, and it turns into this global movement. So that's kind of the story of that.
spk_0: 36:53
So when's that book coming up
spk_1: 36:54
sometime in March? Available on his Amazon Yandle second book. So I'm writing a book for being a TSH academic, So it's a textbook of probably I could be of interest to a lot of people, but that's Ah, Miss Geology book. I'm looking at 10 issues that air hamstring the church in North America. And then I'm going into history and looking at the decisions that we made to cause us to think the way we think about these 10 issues, and I'm going into Scripture and look at a biblical course corrections. We have to make on these 10 if we're actually going toe be the church Christ would like us to be, I think. And so this little novel that I wrote is actually takes those 10 principles and leaves them through it. So actually wrote it at Maura's, a little addendum to the book, and then I just enjoying writing it so much, it became a thing in itself.
spk_0: 37:42
The 2nd 1 just sounds really fascinating as a learning experience. More practitioner whom So I started go to this story. So there's this incredible story. How how's your mom and dad came? No. Jesus. And I just think it's such a great way to finish the party.
spk_1: 37:57
Yeah, so So my I grew up in northern Saskatchewan, Prince Albert and, um, my dad had 1/8 grade education. He worked for Molson's Burry. Um was a good job for, you know, a person with no education. His job was cleaning the cookers where they brewed the beer, and the fringe benefit he got in those days was a case. A free case. I like a 12 pack. You could take home the studies. I remember little stubby bottles back that the trajectory of my parent's life wasn't great. I'm sure they, you know, alcoholism was rampant amongst employees there. For whatever reason, my parents decide to go to a movie in Prince hours of scattering 1967. When you went to a movie, there wasn't multiplexes. It was whatever they're playing. So they drove to the movie theater and it was a movie called the Restless Ones. They went to go pay and they didn't have to pay. But I don't want was 1/4. I don't know what it was back then, but they didn't have to pay so that. Okay, so they went into the movie, sat down and they didn't know it was a Billy Graham movie. And so, at some point in the movie, there was a man and a woman in a convertible car with the top down and the radio on and Billy Graham preaching an invitation to respond to Christ. A lot had happened in that movie, and the Holy Spirit was working in their hearts. And my dad reaches over and squeeze my mom's hand during that scene. Um, they, you know, God was doing something, and then the movie comes to an end and the lights come up break, which is odd. And a guy with a suit gets up to the front and he issues an invitation very similar to what Billy Graham did. I imagine to respond in. My parents remember looking at each other and thinking this is odd and looked around and nobody looked like anything was happening. And so he waited for a while and then he, you know, thank everybody. And so my parents went, that'll Volkswagen Beetle, and they went in their car and they started just talking about that. And God just got hold of them. Um, in the beetle, they prayed to receive Jesus Christ, our lord and savior ask for forgiveness and just pledged their life to him. And, like God does, he doesn't leave them. Abandoned the Holy Spirit. Just we flooded their spirit, and, um and they had this hunger and they found this little Baptist church that was meeting in the afternoons Jack Connor church plan. And so these discipleship path that I grew up in was this church that I just described that wanted to take the gospel everywhere. So you fast forward that story. My dad had long quit Molson's burry God became a welder, started welding shop, became a successful businessman in northern Saskatchewan. He was invited to be on the steering committee for a, uh, Franklin Graham crusade that was going to be happening in Saskatoon. And so they're in the best bro hotel. You know, this big, very kind of opulent hotel and these roundtables and in the banquet room and the guy gets up gives ah, kind of says, anybody want to share how Dr Graham's ministry has impacted your life and my dad didn't like speaking in the public. And so his heart was just kind of pounding, pounding any and he just sense like now. And so he was the 1st 1 to the microphone. He gets up there. He tells a story of going to the movie, tells the story of Ah, praying in a in a car and then being a part of this little church. And and, he says, those two little kids that were being babysat when I went to the movie My daughter Kathy. She and her husband are in South America, and they've been planting churches in South America. My son has planted churches in Saskatchewan, Alberta, and and the Ontario, and the one on terrorism multiplied. And I don't know how many hundreds of people are in the kingdom, because Helen, I went to the movie that day and and he went and sat down and people were hooting and Haller and and stuff. The next guy gets up and he's weeping, and I have a hard time. Would I do this? And he comes up to, um, not to the microphone, but to my dad and he hugs him and I got tears running down his face and he says, Alan, my name is Tom Dice and I used to live in Prince Albert and I was a businessman that put that movie on, and I gave a invitation for two weeks every day for people to respond to Jesus Christ. And every day I went home disappointed and discouraged, and I felt it was a failure and and he's weeping and he's embracing my dad. He's going, you know, praise God. I can see what God did. Tom Dice died fairly quickly after that, and so did my dad. And my mom is now in her last year right now. Probably I don't mad and she'll make another. But Tom and I don't know how I had my theology Has it all worked out? I don't know if they still can high five each other in heaven. I I think maybe, and of of what God is doing, because one faithful person did what the Holy Spirit asked him to do and didn't wasn't pragmatic about it, just was obedient to it. And who knows, You know, the You throw a rock in the pond and the ripples go forever and ever and ever and ever Ephesians 3 2021 to him was able do exceedingly bubbly beyond anything we can ask her Imagine According to the power that's work within us To him be the glory in his church And Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever never, never, never, never, never Amen. And so I just see that as a picture. And sometimes we get the opportunity to look under the curtain of eternity and see what our obedience is done. But most the time we don't get to most the time. We just obey and heaven we're gonna find out on, uh so it's a pretty neat picture.
spk_0: 44:00
That's a great way to end things today because I'm thinking of the number of times we do things where we just say that. Did I get it wrong? Didn't. And I'm not here from God Did did I not? Was I not being obedient because we don't see the results when we leave those results to him. It's amazing what can happen when you don't care about who gets the credit.
spk_1: 44:24
You know, one of the one of the best pictures I have of that is there's a guy in Montreal named Claude Hood who pastors a church called Nouvelle V New Life biggest church in the biggest church in Ah, Quebec by far. And he start, he planted this church, and I think it's three or 4000 people, almost all of whom came to Christ in the church. And that church started less Appel, which is a church plans, which is over 1000 that church has started. I think three or four churches, all in the multi 100 that just continues to go on. And if you go into new, velvety Claude will take you to the pictures of the people who were in Quebec pioneering and went to jail and went to prison and saw nothing. And he brings these church planners circling, tells them their stories. This is this guy. This is this guy. Here is where he served, and here's where he went to prison and over and over and over and over says we're standing on their shoulders where we did, they didn't get to see it, but they prepared the way for what's going on much all right now. And so you're right, it's we don't we don't always get to see it. That's not the servants. Job service job is just obey in the master. He gets to choose how it all works out.
spk_0: 45:37
We talk about ordinary people living extraordinary lives because they've chosen to give their life away to the king. What would you say to the person who is just on the break in saying, God, how could you use May? I mean, So what's that? Then we say, Well, I couldn't do that. Maybe someone saying, You know, I could do that, whatever that is
spk_1: 45:55
you Would you say that? I'd say from cover to cover the meta narrative scriptures weakness. You look at it from from beginning to end, and God only uses weak people. So if you feel like you're strong in an area, you might be thinking, I want to be thinking about something else. But if you feel like God is calling you to something and you feel under equipped under gun under finance under anything, probably that's exactly where God's calling you, because gonna force you to faith. And when you're forced to faith, you get to see God's power in you. So it might be exactly the step God wants you to take.
spk_0: 46:29
Well, Jeff, thank you for taking time with us today. Seriously, you are one of my heroes, and we have a private joke between us and the way they are. And I can't tell you how much it means to me that
spk_1: 46:42
you're blessed to be with you. Thank you.
spk_0: 46:49
Hey, listen, I just have to tell you the story behind me, telling Jeff that he is still my hero. In 2011 our church Planning Catalyst team, which was led by Jeff, was meeting in Cochran, Alberta. I hadn't noticed that Jeff had grabbed my phone for a few minutes so he could pull a prank on me by going into my contact list and replacing his name with the name my hero. So while we were waiting for another leader to join us in a non line meeting, my phone suddenly started to buzz. And when I looked at the screen, it said, My hero. Well, the room broke out in laughter because I was the only one who was unaware. But, you know, from that day forward, I have left Jeff's name in my phone as my hero because he really is. There's so much of our conversation with Jeff that we could focus on, but I I really want to highlight what Jeff left us with. He said the meta narrative of Scripture is weakness from cover to cover. We see God using people in their weaknesses, So if you feel like you are strong in an area, you might want to think about something else. But if you feel God calling you to something and you feel under equipped under gunned, underfunded or under anything, probably that's where God is calling you because it forces you to faith. And when you are forced to faith, you get to see God's power in you. Let's unpack that for a bit, Jeff said that God uses people in our weakness. And when I when he was saying that I started to think about a guy in the Old Testament of the Bible named Moses and you find his story in Exodus Chapter three and four, at least this part of his story. Moses had been spending about 40 years in the wilderness, tending his father in law shit because of a failure of his own. And one day God approaches Moses out of a burning bush. And he tells Moses that he has called him to go back to Egypt to bring his brothers and sisters, his fellow Israel lights out of bondage in captivity into a promised land. Now Moses had a whole lot of questions about that, and he started out with this one. He said. Well, who m I got? Who am I that I should go to this? I mean, of all people, I am the last one that should go and try something like this. No, God had an interesting answer for Moses. There in verse number 11 of Exodus Tree. Here was God's answer. I will certainly be with you. And this will be the sign to you that I am the one who sent you. When you bring the people out of Egypt, you will all worship God at this mountain where God was dealing with Moses in that day. But that wasn't enough for Moses. He had a second question. He said. Well, when I tell them that the god of their fathers has sent me and they asked me his name. What shall I tell them? What name am I going to give them? Who am I going to say has called me when they say What's his name? And God had an answer for that. His answer was simply, I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israel lights. I am has sent me to you. Exodus 3 14 simply God said, I am always the same. I am the self existent one. Yeah, way. Yeah, way has sent you to them. That's what you're to tell them. Well, Moses isn't finished yet, he says. Well, what if they won't follow me? And then God gives in to miraculous signs? And then finally, Moses says, Please, Lord, I have never been eloquent either in the past or recently, since you have been speaking to your servant because my mouth and my tongue are sluggish. 1st 10 of Chapter four God's answer was simply this. Who plays the mouth in humans? Who gave you your mouth? Moses, who makes a person mute or deaf? seeing or blind, is it not? I the Lord, now go. I will help you speak, and I will teach you what to say. And you think that that would be enough for Moses. But he had one last objection. And finally we get to the crux of the matter, the matter of his art. And he says, Please, God, send somebody else. Have you ever felt that way? God is asking you, inviting you to join him in what he is doing in a person's life, somewhere hand to you or someone you're in a relationship with, or God has invited you to join him and what he wants to do on your street, in your neighborhood, in your town. And finally you just say, Please, God, would you send somebody else? Because we feel we are so weak? Well, there's a great thing about weakness. I mean, this is really good news. I hope you're encouraged by where we go Next. Listen. Weakness forces us to faith. We find a similar story to that of Moses in judges. Chapter six of the Old Testament. The Bible where a guy named Gideon rehearses his doubts to God as God calls him to lead Israel into battle against their oppressors, the philistine sze and God responds to Gideon. And to make sure that that all who would know who really won the battle God dwindled the Israel light force down to about 300 men to go into battle against thousands. Let me rephrase a line from earlier in my conversation with Jeff. It's amazing what can be done when we are committed to giving God all the credit. And that day, when that army or that small group of proofs 300 men went to battle against thousands of the Philistines and won the battle, guess who realized who would get the credit. The Israel ites realized that the credit was all gods listen, trusting fully in God for our ability for our strength, for our resourcing, for the results does two things. First of all, it pleases God. The Bible tells us in the New Testament that without faith, it is impossible to please God, since the one who draws near to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him in Hebrews. Chapter 11 Verse six. Trusting, believing in God trusting fully in him really pleases him. I often tell the story about when I was a little child and I grew up on a farm, and as they were building the loads of hay, I would just keep stepping up on the next year until the load was done. But in the end, I was so high up off the ground, it was too frightening for me to jump down, and my dad would come alongside that load of hay and hold out his arms and he would say, Jump, Sam, jump Now I know my name is Derek, but my Nick name was Sam and jump Sam jump. And I always knew that my dad was strong enough to catch me, that I was safe in his arms, that he would never let me fall. And so I would jump confidently off that load of hay and into his arms, trusting God fully jumping off into his arms and whatever he is asking us to do pleases him. And the second thing it does is it allows us to see God's power working in us and through us. There was, ah, an apostle, a leader in the New Testament and we find him in second Corinthians Chapter nine. But his name is Paul and he has a weakness. We don't know what it was we were not told in Scripture, but God. He had asked God to remove this three times and God didn't. And finally Paul came to this conclusion. He said Therefore, I will most gladly boast all the more about my weaknesses so that Christ power may reside in me. So I take pleasure in weaknesses and insults, hardships, persecutions and in difficulties for the sake of Christ. For when I am weak, then I am strong. Let me tell you, friend, if you feel inadequate, if you feel weak for the task God's strength and God's power that has on Lee found in fully trusting him we'll keep you strong. So let me leave you with two next steps for you. First off, let me encourage you to start living like a kingdom citizen today by allowing God to have his way in your life as best you know how If you are wondering what that might look like for you, I would love to begin a conversation with you. Just drop me an email that Hello at Lost and found Podcast Don C A. Now, if you sense God leading you to serve others in some way and and you feel inadequate, my word to you is, well, congratulations. You and I are supposed to feel inadequate. This forces us to trust God. He knows what he's doing. So say yes to what God is asking you to do. Let him have his way in your life. Live like a kingdom citizen. Thank you for taking time to be with us today before you leave the podcast. Remember to subscribed and leave us a comment right there in your viewer. You want to check out our show notes because in those show notes, there's also there also links to a couple of books that Jeff has published and you can go right from show. Note. Quick on the link. Go directly to Amazon and purchase those books. And when you do, you support Jeff and what he is doing, and you also support our podcast. Now you can connect with us in a couple of ways. If you have questions or comments first, you can drop by our website lost and found podcast dot C a and check out the resources that we have. Therefore, you will be posting an article relating to this episode on Wednesday, April 8th 2020 and you will want to check that. And while you're there, make sure you register for our insider newsletter. If you haven't already now, you can also send us an email at hello at lost and found podcast dot c A. I would love to hear from you. Hey, it's been a slice being with you today and until the next time. This is Derek Jones wishing you an extraordinary life as you give yourself away in service to others.